Proposed Ideas for Membership Mod

[Cotton]

I have been reading through the forums a lot lately, and noticed a few things about the topic of the Membership Mod.

I believe Memberships + Fast Ad Listing are two of the key features for any classifieds site that wants to seriously compete in their specific niche.

Currently, 68 Classifieds v4 does not have them.

Now, I am not complaining. I am just posting to hopefully get something going, on those two things.

You know, from what I am reading it seems that the membership mod idea got a little out of hand, people wanted it to function in 100 different ways, according to their needs. Which in turn might have caused the whole idea to get put on the back burner until people finally came to their senses.

I figured maybe I will type a few of my opinions here and you guys could too, and maybe we can all get on the same page.



One thing that we all have to realize, is that THE MOST important step in creating a mod, is the time you take BEFORE you even start it.

When your dealing with more than one client like 68c is

The thought process of creating a mod, and the core functions of a mod MUST be as generic as possible, it MUST work for the masses. Creating a mod that is specific to someones needs CAN NOT come until there is a mod to begin with.

At least not in this situation.

One thing that can quickly kill an idea or mod is, working on it, and in the process of working on it, to much input(users input) floods the coders senses, and before he knows it, he is knee deep in a project that has taken a long time to create, yet the original idea as been distorted.

Now I am not saying user input is not good, I am just saying TOO much input is not good until the core of the mod is built, tested and considered good enough to build upon.

In a situation like this, where there are Multiple clients, and a broad community, your gonna get mods that are good enough to work for the masses, anything else that you need specifically either a. comes with time or b. comes with paying someone to make it fit your needs even better.

A lot of times One mod with a good Core will have multiple variations that will work for most users needs, but again that comes with time.



So for now I am proposing the following for the membership mod.

(And if you have an idea please add, BUT PLEASE dont take over my topic with posts on your specific needs, please keep it generic, and basic, the rest will come in time, Im sure of it.)




Membership Mod:

Basically My idea is this


Admin side:

Allow 2 different types of listings

1. Create a Package so users can pay per listing (already in place)

2. Create a Membership
2a.Control membership length and price per membership package created
2b.number of ads
2c.amount of featured, highlighted, bold listings included with package
2d.set expiration of ads placed
2e.choose which categories the membership is good for (this will allow someone to word it Gold, platinum, yada yada. depending on the level of access.
2f.choose if the membership is good for a certain time period, number of listings, or 3rd option... whichever comes first.
2g.choose which group to throw them in.


User side:

Ads shouldnt expire when the membership expires, they should get their full run.

Im not saying allow a persons unused listings to rollover or anything, but the line of distinction is this:

If they have posted ads right before their membership expires, cool. Let them run until the expiration is reached for that particular ad

but if they didnt take advantage of their membership time, and use up the amount of listings, their fault.

Of course this could be negated if the admin can choose to allow the membership to be good for... a certain time period, amount of listings, or a setting for both (which ever comes first)



Im sure there are some basics I left out, maybe I even included something that is more than basic, but I figure a good core is important, an actual mod is important.. and its way better to keep it simple and have a mod, than making it overly complicated and not have a mod.

Memberships are key.. considering anyone with a decent business plan realizes that a good chunk of the money they get from their niche is going to be coming from dealers. Dealers who could just as easily JUST use ebay, but they also use our sites, cause it "caters" to specific people in the world.

one last thing while I am talking about ebay, and this is off topic, but I m bored so....

If you want to make a living in this business, YOU ABSOLUTELY should be starting as a niche site, and building from there.

big companies might not be in jeopardy if you start a site, but you can bet your a## that you can grab a piece of the market share, but you got to focus on something specific, something that has a group following behind it that consist of people who take pride in having sites that cater to them specifically.

example, pool tables and accessories, would be considered a good niche.

it has a huge following and people take pool VERY seriously.

a site for animal breeders could be considered another niche, or porche parts etc etc.

the above all have a huge following, full of people who take their respective lifestyles very seriousley.

If I am rambling dont mind me, its like 5:00 am here lol

[Mike-N-Tosh]

This post isn't relevant to the coding of this module, but merely an observation/comment regarding it's past history.

I believe that the feature in the 3.x known as "Memberships" was badly named and therefore caused the wide disparity of how it should work and what it would do. The name is also confusing to the "End User/Classifieds Customer". When a customer sees that they can purchase a "Package Listing" or a "Membership" the distinction is extremely convoluted and puts the explanation to the Classifieds ad website owner. (Think, "I already registered! Am I not already a 'Member'?") Even the menu title is called "Member Options" in the main layout. I came to this conclusion in both reading/participating in all of the forum postings regarding memberships as well as when I implemented the feature for a Charity Fund Raiser on my Community site. I spent more time answering "Contact Us" email questions and verbally answering these questions as the fund raiser was for my Church Youth Group.

Perhaps if it had been named more inline with it's actual functionality then it may have been more in line with customers expectation. Some names that come to my mind might be:
Bulk Listings
Seller Subscriptions
Super Sellers
Volume Packages

As far as adding to the concept of moving the module forward, I would also recommend that it be tied to the "Seller Store" module. To me it makes sense that anyone interested in purchasing listings in bulk would also be interested in having their seller information on the site as well.

-Mike

[Lhotch]

I think I am more with Mike on this one. I think memberships as people think of them need to be broken into two groups and handled different ways.

One is a time based membership based on a user group. When a person buys a membership that membership allows them unlimited ad posting (of a specified ad package or packages) for the duration of the membership. The membership ends the ads end. Think of it as a membership to a health club. If your membership is current you ratain priveledges of the membership (ie ability to post ads with no per ad cost.)

The other thing that should be offered whould be bulk listing packages. This would be more like the old membership system was. A user buys a "bulk listing package" which allows them to post XX number of ads that belong to or have the characteristics of the bulk listing package when it was created.

The code for bulk listings, or at least the logic already largely exists, it would just need to be gone over and tested. For the "Membership" system (ie time based) I would think that would be easier to code since its checkout would be the same as using existing packages, the final step would just check to see if you are a current member and if the ad package you chose is an ad package available to members of your group and if so accept no payment and just authorize the order.

[Cotton]

It was late, so I didnt quite have the mental capacity to remember everything I was thinking about this module.

Its name isnt important to me right now, call it whatever you want. I only used the name it was given.

for the purpose of arguement, anytime I say membership in this post, I mean subscription, or multiple listings for one price module, etc.

I agree with some of what you guys are saying, except for a few things, adding it to the seller store, etc.

Your talking about two seperate things, the seller store isnt really a seller store, if we are speaking in terms of proper names. Its a header that displays additional information about the seller.

If you want a true seller store, you need to think in terms of displaying all of their products in a store like atmosphere.

even if you wanted it to be tied to the seller store, how can you have a true seller store without first having an Actual subscription type feature.

I respect your opinion Mike-N-Tosh about my post not being relevent to the coding or moving forward with this module, but I have to disagree.

Your post shows how relevent my post really is. I made a statement about how clients input can create too many variables, which could cause a CORE function to be code in an overly complicated way.

Seller Store, if it existed would be an ADDON to 68c, and would need to modded to work with a subscription type module, not the other way around.

But heres a twist, who says the seller store only has to be for members with subscriptions?

Why cant it be also for members who put up a lot of listings in which they have paid through the current payment packages, one by one?

So why code subscriptions to have anything to do with seller store, even if a true seller store module was created? Its like putting the buggy in front of the horse.

In order for a Subscription Mod to move forward, you have to at least first create something that works, the seller store details can be worked out later, and if a subscription mod needs to be modified a little later on down the line, so be it.

Now if you want to charge a user in order for them to have a seller store that displays all of their listings, its a completely different scenario, which really has nothing to do with creating a "working" membership mod. It At the very least it has nothing to do with determining the outcome of a basic membership/subscription mod.

@Lhotch

I really dont have anything to say about bulk listings, I am not that familiar with it, so I can not speak to much about it.

What I can say, is that my view of bulk listings is uploading multiple listings at once. So if thats what you mean, than you would have to definately change a Bulk Listings Mod, to do the checks of user group, package etc.

If thats what you mean, than its the bulk listing mod that would be cofigured to work with a subscription mod, again meaning that you first have to focus on just getting a subscription mod that works.

A subscripton mod would just simply input data into the database, all the checking is done by php pages of the particular mod or feaure thats being used at the time.

It all goes back to over complicating things, no one can possibly try to make it work with all of those variables, without first creating something basic and working from there.

Actually one of my sites that uses another script works like this.

and its pretty basic.

You either pay for listings individualy

Or you purchase a membership, and you get unlimited listings for that specified amount of time.

And its worded, "Signup as a Dealer" because its a car site, but word it how ever you want, it could be gold package, bronze, whatever.

A user signs up, and they are escorted to a certain user group, when the time runs out, they are demoted.

Im sure a lot of us would settle for something like that right now, at least its a start.


About this

When a person buys a membership that membership allows them unlimited ad posting (of a specified ad package or packages) for the duration of the membership. The membership ends the ads end.

Again, Im not saying your wrong, I just disagree. I dont see any reason for EVER ending an ad prematurely.

I dont understand why that would be done, except to pi## people off, if they posted the add when ther membership was good, it should stay good for 30 days, 60 days or whatever was chosen when creating the membership.

Thats like going to a gym and working out, getting really buff, and when your membership ends, they come and take back the muscle you gained.

When their subscription ends, they should be kept from posting, the extra step of cancelling their new ads is just un needed. And it shows no appreciation for them and their decision to purchase a subscription package in the first place

Im not trying to piss anyone off here, but I have sites that offer dealer services they just dont have the option to easily add extra fields, and I have experience with the topic, anyways, these are just my opinions.

something, anything simple would work for us right now.

[Eric Barnes]

Thanks for post and the explanation. I am not totally against adding it back in some form or another but I would probably want to make it as simple as possible in the beginning and then build it up from there. Maybe even go a module route so it isn't contained within the core script. Users could then decide for themselves if they want to use it or not.

With that said it would only work one way. IE:
When a membership ends the listings expire.... or
When a membership ends the listings continue until they normally expire....

But that is where the issue came up before. If a membership allows x number of listings and the current one expires. So the user would then purchase another would the number of active listings still be x additional or y-x meaning they can place only so many more between the first and second membership.

With that said maybe I am the only making it this complicated.

[michael]

Err on the side of generosity, the customer must be kept sweet and happy. Allow any ads from a prior membership to run their full course - even if that membership has expired!

Any new membership should be a completely separate entity.

[Cotton]

The more I think about it , it may just be better and much simpler for a general audience to just offer a time based, max number of listings mod.

So the user would then purchase another would the number of active listings still be x additional or y-x meaning they can place only so many more between the first and second membership.

maybe Im reading this wrong or confused but, purchasing another to me, means starting fresh, no amount of listings from their previous membership should penalize their new subscription/membership totals.

Unless they renew an expired ad from a previous membership, during a new membership.


If a user buys more than one subscription, before their last one ends, as an incentive, just have it keep adding the amount of time and amount of max listings to their total expiration date, and allowed listings in the db.

if they let it lapse, oh well, just zero it out.



Although I see what you are talking about with the problems with purchasing multiple packages,

if one subscription they purchase is for a listing package that is 30 days in length... what happens if they purchase a subscription that is connected to a package that is 90 days in length?

Maybe just keep them seperate in the database and when they go to place an add, ask which package they want to deduct from.

the db could be something like

table subscriptions

id, userid, subscription id, expiration, package id, expiration date etc.

and for each subscription they purchase, a new row is added to the db

Unless the userid and subscription id and expiration date > today, is aleady a row, if so that row just gets updated with the new total ads allowed and expiration time.

maybe set the cleanup script that runs, to also cleanup any rows that have already expired.


the problem really comes due to the fact that admins can create any number of listing pacakages that are good for any number of categories.

The real problem is that 68 classifieds is just TOO DAMN good at what it does, the variations between different sites using 68c can be tremendous.

but I do think that listings should never expire when the membership does, just my opinion.

My head hurts.

[Mike-N-Tosh]

I agree with the core of what you (Cotton) are proposing and that is how I think it should work. Naming convention aside! I'll call it "Dealer Packages" for the purposes of this post. Regardless of the type of Classifieds site you're running (niche or not) the ability to be able to sell "Dealer Packages" is tremendous from a business standpoint.

The reference to the "Seller Store" was simply an "add-on" reference for the concept. I agree that again, naming is less than desirable, because it isn't a store at all. My point was that having additional information for a "Seller" that is going to purchase/place many ads on a site (which is what we're talking about with the "Dealer Packages") seems to go hand in hand.

With all of that out of the way, here is my take on things at the core level.

"Dealer Packages" can be defined on their own with their own duration time frame and number of listings. This gives the ability to be able to offer different levels and prices. ie: Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, etc.

The listing packages available to any given "Dealer Package" is at the discretion of the site owner. These listing packages are their own entity with their own parameters (text amounts, # of photos and durations). The expiration is not tied to the "Dealer Package" expiration.

Example:
Seller has purchased a "Bronze" package. The "Bronze" package has a duration of 30 days and allows up to 20 listings that have a 60 day duration. Any time during the 30 days the seller that purchased the "Bronze" package can place a listing available to them in the "Bronze" package during this 30 day period. If on the 29th day the seller places a listing, the listing would still run for the 60 day duration.

As package listings are already separated within the 68C database, this shouldn't be an issue. The purchase of a "Dealer Package" in it's basic form is simply a matter of "prepaying" for a number of listings (or unlimited listings). The prepaid "Dealer package" in the checkout process of placing a "listing" is the form of payment that a seller is using (ie: PayPal, Authorize.net, "Dealer Package"). So basically, just like an expired credit card, if the "Dealer Package" has expired, they can't use the "Dealer Package" to pay for their listing.

Along this same line of thought regarding renewals, the same methodology should still apply. When a seller renews a listing they still go through the same checkout process. At the time of payment required, they can use the "Dealer Package" as payment for the renewal if they have a valid "Dealer Package" in place at the time.

Another thought that I had regarding this (along the lines of the existing "Seller Store") would be that perhaps if when purchasing a "Dealer Package" we have the Admin option of placing them in a different user group. While in this "Dealer Package" user group, they have the option of an enhanced "Member Info" profile. The enhanced portion of this profile is the additional seller logo/pic, additional information and/or web link to their own site. As the 68C script already has the ability to view seller info already in place. So a simple {if}enhanced profile fields{/if}.

-Mike

[Lhotch]

Cotton, now you see why it was scrapped. Everyone and their brother has an idea of how it should work and when it doesnt work that way they all complain.

[Cotton]

thats pretty darn good Mike-N-Tosh


@ Lhotch

Oh yeah... I was up thinking about ALL the different possiblities, and how one would go about coding a dealer/subscription package for 68c, when 68c is so complex in itself. Heck I literally had my forehead on the desk trying to think of everything that could possibly happen, and it is very hard to think of a way for even a basic subscription to be put in place.


--

Im almost ready to just vote for a mod that allows us to offer time limited - unlimited listings type packages.

For my particular needs I can see offering:

3 Months Unlimited w/75 Featured/Bold/highlighted at $49.99
6 Months Unlimited w/200 Featured/Bold/highlighted at $79.99
12 Months Unlimited w/450 Featured/Bold/highlighted at $119.99

Type Packages. and being content with that.

With prices high enough to make spammers think about losing their accounts, but low enough that its still obtainable by the dealer/distributors.

Say with listings that last a standard Dealer Limit of 60 Days.

Once they run out of bold-higlight-featured available for the package, they could purchase more featured/highlight/bold on a bulk level that would still be good in case their dealer package time runs out.

that would be the simplest way I could think of for attracting dealers/distrbutor type business. And while they have that dealer package, they can just skip the payment option altogether.

It would also help to alleviate the problem of having to purchase multiple dealer packages based on what category they want to post in, and other things like, the problem of if a person buys two different packages - which one takes precedent etc etc.

its no sweat of my back right? I mean the listings dont stay in the database forever, they eventually expire and disappear.

And I cant see anyone in my niche putting up more than 500 (really I est about 100) listings per month.

I think I could live with that, esp as its simple and right to the point. And probably is the best way to attract dealers because of no complexity or double talk.

Any downside to to doing it this way may just be negated by the business it brings in.

Although to tell you the truth, I could probably charge $200-$400 a year for dealer packages and still have room for the price to increase gradualy over a certain period of time. There are also a lot of Dealer/Distributor type business's in my niche