Going Beyond the Days of White Pages

[industrialpost]

Say all you designers out there that want to really jazz up your site from the boring white backgrounds template that come with the purchase of 68c! I have an important snippet of code that you really need to pay attention to. 68c has done a great job in rolling out a product that allows for great expansion and customizing, however, they don't tell you the little hang ups that come when you want to change the page background from white to any other color or for that matter, an image. Because you see, the templates that they give you are all assuming that you are not going to change this. But chances are, you are going to want to.

So I am here to let you know about an important discovery that none of the 68c Support staff provided me. After spending countless hours of round and round posts on this forum, I have decided to spare you all from the same grief I experienced. As you know there are many things you can do with the 68c platform. Buy modules, customize the code, buy new templates... etc. And this is all great. But when it comes time to customizing the layout for yourself and tweaking the code (which I guess is a no-no. Whoops. Didn't I buy the Developer License? Why yes I did, thank you. I am a big boy, I will handle future upgrades to v4.1.3 just fine.) you may run into this issue I had.

68c assumes that the interaction between the content of the page and the footer of the page is seamless. This is not true when you happen to have a page background that is not white. Because you see, the code is relying on you keeping the page background white in order to hide this flaw.

Here is the flaw:

If you have tweaked the page background to be other than white and you have tweaked the footer to be other than white, you will see a gap appear on pages that have a "Continue" button on the bottom of the page. This gap appears between the content of the page and the footer. The same goes for pages that have the pagination on them. This just means that if you go to a page that has, let's say all your ads, if you have more than the page can display, a div will show up with page navigation.

This is a big problem! It really looks tacky with this gap. Oh the code may look ok in Firefox, Chrome, or Safari, but it is a different story for IE. And since you are designing for all the major browsers, you will want to know about this.

IE7 is really bad as you all know. IE8 is not that much better. But this little snippet of code with fix all your troubles with this gap in all browsers. So here goes:

In the style.css insert this little bit if code:

.btm {
background: #fff;
height: 10px;
margin: 0;
clear: both;
}

Make sure to keep it as a class, but you can rename "btm" to whatever you want.

Next insert this line "<div class="btm"></div>" into this section of code located in the layout.tpl file:

<div id="pagecontent">
<div id="content">
<!-- // Content // -->
{* This includes the content portion *}
{include file=$body}
<!-- // End Content // -->
<div class="btm"></div>
</div>

Notice where it is at. It is just before the end tag of the <div id="content"> tag.

And that is it!!!! Now if you happen to have a custom footer and a custom page background, anytime anyone of your pages auto populates a "continue" button based on your actions or if you happen to be looking at a list of ads and have the pagination show up at the bottom of the page, you will not see a gap in between the content and the footer.

Happy Coding!!!! If you would like to see this in action go here: Industrialpost.com

[michael]

Not too sure about the attitude but a very useful post all the same.

Thanks.

[industrialpost]

After what I have been through, you would have thought that I was pulling teeth just to get a straight answer. So yeah, sorry if I came across a little arrogant. Just wanted someone to pay attention to my question. I mean, stop and take the time to really listen to what I was saying. Instead of this thread: http://www.68classifieds.com/forums/...ter-error.html

It really was a time waster. I just wish the support for this 68c had a phone number to call. All of this would have been resolved in a matter of hours instead of countless sleepless nights. Again sorry if it came across as righteous. It just felt good to arrive with an answer that no one was (really) willing to help me with.

[seymourjames]

Code straight from our templates. The point is you keep posting and posting. What you need to do and finally you have done is take some responsibility for what you do and desire.


The default template was a free source provided under a gnu license by a chap called Solijca or something like that. The point is this. It can be a starting point or a finishing point for a 68C project or indeed neither of these. That is the decision of the developer and the skills he/she has to modify the template or create his own. The template works fine in its original state. It will also work if it is modified correctly. This second point is the point. It is easy to affect some modifications and more difficult to affect others. You happen to choose a more difficult one because you did not posses the knowledge to do so. Its relative to you. To criticize other people who were not able to help you (they were not even able to see your site for most of your posts) is unfair.

If you decide to modify the default template substantially as you have been doing all in one go (I managed to see our site 3 or 4 times in the last few days), then you should appreciate the outcome may not be what you wanted. No point complaining about that. You will need the skills to rectify any problems you create or you should not be doing what you are doing. So to be harsh, it is you that is creating the issues and not the template itself. You are choosing to change it in such a way that it does not fly as you desire. How can anyone know what others are going to do with it? The list of possibilities is infinite. It was designed with a purpose in mind to make pages on a white background and not a panacea to all possible outcomes. Show me where it says this template will work with different background colors by simply changing the background color. It doesn't say that. If you want a great template then buy one, make one, modify one or use the default one with a white background but stop complaining.

My straightforward advice is make small changes, one at a time and test the outcome at every step. Do things logically. Like the css validation process. If you make lots of changes without being cautious then expect it not to meet your requirements. If you really think after looking at it before doing all these changes at once, that it will not work as you require then you should design your own template or choose another. It is an investment and takes time to develop a template but there is nothing to stop you. There are lots of free templates which can be adapted to make a layout.tpl for example. It is a question of skill.

[bowers01]

with all due respect 68c supply a script that works how it is ment straight out of the box. If you want to customize it thats up to you. I was suprised how they still suported it after the user has changed the script.
It is not up to 68c to help you change the template, the support is really there for problems you have with the script not customization, the templates that coem with it work faultlessly. I found the support to be 20/10 every time i have contacted them. They have gone out of their call of duty to help me in the past when a lot of other companies would have just said "You want to change it you are on your own"

Just my opinon

[Lhotch]

Originally Posted by industrialpost

I mean, stop and take the time to really listen to what I was saying.

Or maybe, just maybe you could stop whining that the68c templates ARENT RIGHT and actually simply state what you are looking to accomplish.

Im sorry you didnt get the help you wanted but guess what. I DONT GET PAID TO BE HERE. I have a full time job and a family to feed. The time I spend here FREELY to help WHERE I CHOSE is time away from them and my other responsibilities.

Your incompetence at design is not my fault. Your inability to figure something out is not my fault. Your dislike for the 68C default templates is not my fault. If you would have simply taken the time you spent here complaining about how the template IS NOT RIGHT and actually educated yourself on the fundamentals of CSS and got out from behind your dreamweaver crutch you may have solved the problem a lot sooner.

I explained to you early on I am not a designer and the answer to your question was not readily obvious to me or I would have offered it up. At the same time I was not going to spend extensive amounts of MY TIME fixing your problem. As it says in my forum signature, I am not an employee of 68C, I dont get paid for this and my time is voluntary. A great many people have benefited from my time. Many of which are other designers or coders who are getting paid by clients to do something they are incapable of, they come here and I end up doing their job for them while they collect a check and if Im lucky I get a thank you. Maybe the same applies to you or perhaps your site is your own, either way I dont care. The 68C free support covers getting the script up and working as designed. Modifications after that are your responsibility but they furnish us users a forum with which to exchange ideas and knowledge. NO WHERE does it state that 68C, or the volunteer mods will babysit you.

Having said all of that your incessant whining and attitude has just encouraged me to use the oh so cool "ignore" functionality of the VB script. That way you wont have to waste any more time explaining how wrong something is to me.

[Mike-N-Tosh]

I appreciate that you posted the final code that you came up with to resolve YOUR issue. That is how a free community forum works and helps those that are part of it.

I don't appreciate the attitude and the accusations toward 68C and those trying to help you especially when they don't seem to be founded. As Larry pointed out, we volunteer our time here on the forums and offer free advice and support here.

If you purchase a new car and you decide to replace the radio with another one. In doing so, you screw up the ignition wiring so now your car won't start. Is the car manufacturer responsible to fix the issue that you created? While trying to fix it on your own and you ask others for help and their advice and suggestions don't resolve the issue based on the pictures that you took of your newly installed radio are they to blame?

[industrialpost]

Thank you guys for your insight in to this matter. And don't get me wrong, I really do appreciate any responses from this user forum. I would like to point out that regardless of your status of employee of 68c or not, there should be a Phone # set up so that users can call to help resolve code issues. This would have eliminated any judgments that are being conjured up because no one responding is willing to take a step back from this situation and learn from this exchange of support. No one that has responded has said, "What can we do better in the future for our users with regards to support?" EMAIL SUCKS. And my intention was not to blast anyone, just to express my frustration in this initial question.

Originally Posted by seymourjames

The template works fine in its original state. It will also work if it is modified correctly.

This is interesting. I went back and restarted from the beginning with the "default" template and enabled it so that everyone could see what I was talking about. I even provided links. I also asked if anyone wanted a static visual. And through this I proved that with the no other changes other than color changes, that the template's core code worked fine. However the template assumes that the entire page is white. What I mean by this, is that there is no provision for making a simple color change. This is not custom coding. This is just a simple color change.

Originally Posted by seymourjames

You happen to choose a more difficult one because you did not posses the knowledge to do so.

Sooo... isn't this purpose of the forums? To help others regardless of the changes they are trying to make? Forums are an learning environment to share ideas, new or old. Obviously mine was new, based on the backlash. Definitely got the canned CYA responses. You yourself knew what I was talking about, but didn't offer any assistance just a link to your site. Your custom code proves my point in your demo. However, this was the tipping point of resolving the "out of the box" behavior of the default temple. (By the way, Thank you!)

Originally Posted by seymourjames

To criticize other people who were not able to help you (they were not even able to see your site for most of your posts) is unfair.

Again, I apologize. I was only trying to express my frustration from no one (except for Mike-in-Tosh) stopping to really look at my question. I feel like I was yelling "hello" in a crowed room. And no one really hearing me.

Originally Posted by seymourjames

If you decide to modify the default template substantially as you have been doing all in one go (I managed to see our site 3 or 4 times in the last few days), then you should appreciate the outcome may not be what you wanted. No point complaining about that.

But here is the deal, (thanks to Larry, and I really mean that) the post started out as this but half way through he directed me to go back to the core code and try to get this strange behavior to show itself. And I did and it did. But it was at this point that the thread starting going around in circles. I am not sure why. It was plain as day to me especially after I gave the links to the pages I was looking and described in detail the areas of concern. How many other page elements can there be that are called "content" and "footer" with the out of the box code?

Originally Posted by seymourjames

You will need the skills to rectify any problems you create or you should not be doing what you are doing. So to be harsh, it is you that is creating the issues and not the template itself. You are choosing to change it in such a way that it does not fly as you desire.

I do have skills. Otherwise the site wouldn't look as good as it does. However, I don't have all the skills. That is why I came to this forum, to gain insight from other developers that know the code inside and out. And that is why anyone comes to these forums right? To gain insight for things they don't understand. I didn't create this problem, it was already there. I just a simple color in the code is it was there. How can this be only me? Are we all lemmings and not able to think out of the box? And when asked to place the version of 68c and the type of license within out Signature on this forum, don't you think that perhaps if someone has purchase the developer license that they intend to change the heck out of the canned template? Clearly this was in my signature and yet here I am sharing a new concept, only to get a CYA response.

Originally Posted by seymourjames

It was designed with a purpose in mind to make pages on a white background and not a panacea to all possible outcomes.

How can this be a panacea of possible outcomes? It is a simple behavior. One that you already knew how to fix.

Originally Posted by seymourjames

Show me where it says this template will work with different background colors by simply changing the background color. It doesn't say that.

You are right. It doesn't address the question at all. Nothing.

Originally Posted by seymourjames

If you want a great template then buy one, make one, modify one or use the default one with a white background but stop complaining.

Um, that is what I am doing. Modifying. And I just needed some simple help.

Originally Posted by seymourjames

My straightforward advice is make small changes, one at a time and test the outcome at every step. Do things logically. Like the css validation process.

This is how I do things regardless. Make one change and then test it within the browser.The only thing I failed to do was the validation of HTML and CSS. This was new to me. And I figured it out. Thanks for the recommendation! However, like I said this was not an issue of validation. It was a strange behavior within the template out of the box that I was asking for troubleshooting help with.

Originally Posted by bowers01

with all due respect 68c supply a script that works how it is meant straight out of the box. If you want to customize it that's up to you. I was surprised how they still supported it after the user has changed the script.

But again I didn't change anything other than the color. The behavior of this gap was already "not supported" in the out of the box code. This was an oversight on the developers. Simple as that.

Originally Posted by bowers01

It is not up to 68c to help you change the template, the support is really there for problems you have with the script not customization

Sooo... isn't the forum open to anyone, especially those that have purchased the Developer License?? Of all the users, this group should be the most supported, because they have direct access to the code. And the 68c staff and forum moderators know (or at least should know) where to get the answers to the questions that this group posts to the forums. I have an idea. Why not create a new area based on license purchase? That way you know whether or not you can really take the users seriously. I feel I was not taken seriously. And where does it say that support is only regulated to as certain file? 68c provides the whole code! Script/code it is all the same - subject to modifying. If you don't support that, then what do you support?

Originally Posted by bowers01

the templates that come with it work faultlessly. I found the support to be 20/10 every time i have contacted them. They have gone out of their call of duty to help me in the past when a lot of other companies would have just said "You want to change it you are on your own" Just my opinion

You are right. It works. But not without flaws. If it was faultless or flawless, then there would be no reason to have version upgrades. Am I right? So we are on v4.1.3 and Larry just mentioned to me that they are working on a new version roll out. Hmm. Interesting.

And yet, I got the 20/40 approach to my inquiry. But I give them props for at least having a forum and willing at face to help with the code. You are right, the responses could have been "you are on your own". And strangely even with the responses, I was on my own. Why? Not sure. My inquiry was on the simplest of levels and not that complicated to duplicate for those that know the code inside and out. I do not know the code inside and out, but I am starting to.

[industrialpost]

Originally Posted by Lhotch

Or maybe, just maybe you could stop whining that the68c templates AREN'T RIGHT and actually simply state what you are looking to accomplish.

I did numerous times. In fact, in different ways in fear that what I was saying wasn't making sense. And obviously with the rounds of comments, it still didn't make sense to others. Not sure why. All the links were provided. Again how many other places in the main code are referenced by "content" and "footer". And I am not whining. I am waiting for someone to man up and say "yeah this is an oversight of the code. Glad you pointed that out." That is all I am asking for. But all I am hearing is CYA. CYA. Blah Blah Blah. I happen to find a flaw in the code that could be fixed so that other developers can customize and not have the same problems I faced. Someone grow some balls and say "yes, this will be fixed."

Originally Posted by Lhotch

I'm sorry you didn't get the help you wanted but guess what. I DON'T GET PAID TO BE HERE. I have a full time job and a family to feed. The time I spend here FREELY to help WHERE I CHOSE is time away from them and my other responsibilities.

You should change that. Really. From what I hear you are really busy. Too busy. And I have learned anything about working for myself, time is precious. If you are having that taken away from you and taking you away from your family, you should be paid. Family is more important than free support for a forum.

Originally Posted by Lhotch

Your incompetence at design is not my fault. Your inability to figure something out is not my fault. Your dislike for the 68C default templates is not my fault. If you would have simply taken the time you spent here complaining about how the template IS NOT RIGHT and actually educated yourself on the fundamentals of CSS and got out from behind your dreamweaver crutch you may have solved the problem a lot sooner.

You are right. I am not a super genius at coding. But I am learning. Who is the super genius? Please let me know and I would be happy to meet them. The point is that we are all learning. We are never at a point where we know everything. And that is my other point for raising this issue. You yourself said that you are not as proficient at CSS as compared to seymourjames and Mike-in-tosh. But you could help me understand the code better if you took the time to look at the links and ask me more politely about what I am trying to do instead of asking the same thing over and over. I gave you tons of different ways that I knew how to describe the behavior of the "out of the box" code and yet I got the run around and CYA answer because you took a look at our page and automatically assumed that just because it didn't look like the template "out of the box" that it was my fault in my coding skills. I so wish that this approach to solving any issue on this forum is thrown out. That just shows lack of willingness to really understand the situation that a user posts.

Don't get me wrong, your help in the other areas of the site have been top notch. The membership mod works great! I am just raising the issue of how problems are dealt with on this forum. That is my beef.

You are right about CSS. I was already planning on taking some online courses so that I can strengthen my CSS skills before I started working with 68c. And just so you know, I don't use Dreamweaver as a crutch. Please don't assume this. I started coding with notepad when I first got into coding. This wasn't an issue of using Dreamweaver. Period.

Originally Posted by Lhotch

I explained to you early on I am not a designer and the answer to your question was not readily obvious to me or I would have offered it up. At the same time I was not going to spend extensive amounts of MY TIME fixing your problem.

This was my fault for I only observed this behavior when we installed the Category Tree. Again, I failed to take the time to investigate whether this was happening site wide. And you were right about handing this off to seymourjames and Mike-in-tosh, but they never responded as much as you did, so I kept talking to you. If they would have responded, then perhaps I would have gotten the answer sooner. I say that just because of your claim to not know CSS that well.

Originally Posted by Lhotch

As it says in my forum signature, I am not an employee of 68C, I don't get paid for this and my time is voluntary. A great many people have benefited from my time. Many of which are other designers or coders who are getting paid by clients to do something they are incapable of, they come here and I end up doing their job for them while they collect a check and if I'm lucky I get a thank you. Maybe the same applies to you or perhaps your site is your own, either way I don't care. The 68C free support covers getting the script up and working as designed. Modifications after that are your responsibility but they furnish us users a forum with which to exchange ideas and knowledge. NO WHERE does it state that 68C, or the volunteer mods will babysit you.

I stand to applaud your efforts. Kudos to you. You need to hear that more. Well done! Again you need to change that about your services from 68c. You need to get paid for your time.

You should care. When you stop caring is when your quality of support diminishes. As part of offering the code whether it is the core application code or a Mod, it is the responsibility of the author to provide great support for the entire code. This is a hands down responsibility. To make something and not offer support for whatever the situation is crazy. Might as well not have published the code. Case in point: Right now I am having a heck of a time getting support for the "Multi Purchase Mod" Eric Barnes wrote. Now granted it is free, but this should not limit the timeliness nor the quality of support for this mod. The mod simply does not work in IE. And since majority of PC users use IE, this is a mod that is useless.

I have to disagree with you. Forums and support for a product is kind of like "holding one's hand" or on a childish level, babysitting. If there is a legitimate question asked, then it is the most productive to offer relative support to that issue. If you can't offer any new insight, then just say that. Be upfront and honest. But most likely someone knows someone else that can address the issue and get it resolved. This is called customer service and yes it is babysitting. You started out right by referring me to the other top dogs on this forum. It was their bad that they didn't follow through with it. This looks bad on them and you did the best you could.

Originally Posted by Lhotch

Having said all of that your incessant whining and attitude has just encouraged me to use the oh so cool "ignore" functionality of the VB script. That way you wont have to waste any more time explaining how wrong something is to me.

This is sad. Grow some balls and let's stop the childish behavior. I was not whining. I was yelling! j/k But I was cryin' wolf and no one was listening. There is no reason for this lack of support.

[industrialpost]

Originally Posted by Mike-N-Tosh

I appreciate that you posted the final code that you came up with to resolve YOUR issue. That is how a free community forum works and helps those that are part of it.

You are welcome. And thank you for raising to the occasion by being supportive. You out of everyone was really honestly, I feel, was trying to help me genuinely.

Originally Posted by Mike-N-Tosh

I don't appreciate the attitude and the accusations toward 68C and those trying to help you especially when they don't seem to be founded. As Larry pointed out, we volunteer our time here on the forums and offer free advice and support here.

Again you all need to change that. And change the way you approach your users. If someone purchases a Developer License, then they will need the most support because be default they are going to start working with the code like you have never seen before. And why not be open to new ideas? Sticking with the same old, same old never benefits anyone. The attitude was because I was getting shotty support. Again I apologize. I was really frustrated. And again no phone support. This is really lame that there is no phone support.

Originally Posted by Mike-N-Tosh

If you purchase a new car and you decide to replace the radio with another one. In doing so, you screw up the ignition wiring so now your car won't start. Is the car manufacturer responsible to fix the issue that you created? While trying to fix it on your own and you ask others for help and their advice and suggestions don't resolve the issue based on the pictures that you took of your newly installed radio are they to blame?

No and you are right. But I did provide ample text describing the problem with multiple links and asked if the static visuals would help. I did as much as I could with the tools that I have. I tried to show the new site as we have customized it, but you can't have that run and have the default "out of the box" template run side by side. And besides this was an issue of the core code not supporting a reasonable thought. "Hey, what would happen if someone wanted to change the color of the page background other than white?" Perhaps these free templates can in the future take on this thought and be a little more intuitive even for those that don't have the developer license. All I am trying to do is raise these questions: "Why did I get CYA answers from support when clearly this was a simple thing to solve in the core code (because it was)? And how come no one else really cares about how this situation was handled? And how come everyone assumed that it was on my end just because the page layout looks different (when clearly it wasn't)?